As the Ivor Callely saga rumbles on, and on, and on, surely it’s time to step back and rejig things. As Itchy pointed out in the comments the other day Callely, rightly I should add, being dragged over the coals for his alleged frauds pales into insignificance when you look at this.
Callely is an easy target, a thoroughly unimportant and dislikeable man, yet for years suspicions, rumours and unexplained cash made it’s way through the highest office in the land. And we allowed it, by our relative silence we were complicit.
Still, TDs are allowed an amount of unvouched expenses. TDs, sentators, councillors and all kinds of public ‘servants’ exist in a culture of entitlement. I mean, we pay these people for simply showing up to work on top of their salary. Wouldn’t we all enjoy that kind of perk? It’s accepted as part of the politicians lot but when you look at it objectively it’s ludicrous.
Let’s be honest, the reason most of these people go into politics is not because they want to serve their communities and make the country a better place, it’s because it’s a lucrative business that affords them power and the chance to slurp from the un-ending gravy train. Expenses, allowances, travel, junkets, committees … it’s non-stop.
Yet with so much available to them legitimately, as things stand, there are those whose greed means they’ll forge and lie and commit fraud to milk as much from the system as they can. So why is it tolerated?
Why is there not a no-tolerance system? If you take money you shouldn’t have, you forfeit your position and any right to remain a public ‘servant’. If the rules are made clear then those who choose to break them should face the consequences. There can be no grey area, no excuses about how they didn’t know, it’s black and white.
Perhaps it might discourage those who steal from the taxpayer – that is what they’re doing – and theft in any other job generally ends with dismissal. In the longer term it might actually encourage people to enter politics whose interest is in the work and not the money they can make from it.
Pie in the sky?
I don’t know if it’s just an Irish thing or a human nature thing, but the more you give, the more people will try to take.
Your post makes perfect sense. I still can’t believe that, even if Fianna Fail fuck him out, he gets to stay in as an Independent. Country’s fucked.
We’re suffering from our lack of size and our lack of balls. In a bigger country, a cheating fucker like Callely becomes an abstract and something to be lanced.
Here, however, too many people know too many people. Too many people have leverage (or mythical dirty photographs) that they can use against each other.
Justice moves slowly in Ireland, too slowly by far. But let’s see what happens. Looks like he forged some bills or something, and scammed himself 3k. What if you did that as Joe Public? What would you get if you were caught doing that?
It’ll take ages, but they’ll take him to court if they can prove it, and I doubt you’d do time for it, but his reputation is fucked and his public life is over. Transgressing Joe Public would just get fined I’d say.
Be interesting to see if they get Seanie Fitzpatrick in the dock as well. No doubt Justice moves too slow, all the same you wouldn’t want knee-jerk reactions.
only one way to get this sort of shit to stop. that is make one of the fuckers running for the next election to promise that this type of shit will be tackled with new legislation or change of constitution within a year of taking office. make gilmore or kenny promise to do something about it while the election is on then get a radio station like newstalk to keep harping on about it day after day, which shouldn’t be too much of a stretch for them. out of all of them my guess is kenny would do the most in cleaning up the culture of fiddling within politics in this country.
I think it’s more of a bad idea, really. You say a “zero-tolerance” system, but don’t address the point of who decides who should be kicked out of the Oireachtas. The Taoiseach? The courts? The Oireachtas itself? No method is workable, as far as I can tell. Unless you answer that question, it’s totally pie in the sky, and can be safely filed under “something should be done” in the Joe Duffy filing system.
I’d also completely disagree with the idea that “most” people enter politics for the perks. There are certainly some, and I’d say that there are quite a few who stay in for the perks having entered for different reasons. But the reality is that being in politics take a fuckload of work, and you’ve essentially no holidays. You’re constantly in the media glare, and any cunt thinks that they fucking own you 24/7, and feels entitled to walk up to you whenever and tell you that you’re shit. You can also say goodbye to the vast majority of your life – family and social – and, should you eke out a bit of a social life, you’ll likely be criticised by some prick on Twitter for “not focusing on the recovery” or some shite.
Most TDs have spent literally decades working up the chance to get a nomination to get a job which has job security of 30 days. The odds of someone in politics getting elected are slim, and if people were just interested in expenses etc (most of which, incidentally, goes towards things like constituency offices), they’d take up a different job. The pay is good, but only if you ignore the bullshit, risks, and hours of the job.
There are plenty of pricks in the Oireachtas (incidentally, we put them there), but I think you’d be better off focusing on why they’re pricks, rather than doing this “they’re all in it for the money” cul-de-sac of an argument.
Surely it’s possible to create an independent body which can decide/make judgement if somebody is found to have engaged in fraud etc.
Ok, so maybe they’re not all in it for the money, the others ones just love the bit of power it affords them.
we have western politics. end of story.
bertie’s list is bigger, what we know of is merely a drop in the bucket.
We need a new party.
I dunno, Twenty, I think having a body (other than the people, or those who they elect) which can kick people out of the Oireachtas is a pretty dodgy situation. I’d say that the shite current system is better than that, even if it means we have to deal with Ivor for another two years.
Maybe it’s just an unfortunate, unavoidable cost of the system.
But in this system nobody is held accountable or disciplined. What will happen to Callely? As Radge says he might get kicked out of FF but will remain an independent sentator.
Even in in the face of countless pieces of evidence Bertie Ahern was able to get away with it by telling ‘the dog ate my homework’ lies.
Something has to change.
No Tolerance?
Drink more!
You’re spot on with this one Twenty. A system with defined penalties for these actions is necessary. Every company has a code of discipline. There has to be black and white rules to judge the TD’s against too. Otherwise it’s just going to tempt the nature of these swindling fucks to find another way to keep swindling. At least now with so much electronic documentation of everything these records are coming out. I’d imagine there’s an awful lot of TD’s absolutely shitting their knickers now. Callelly isn’t going to be the last of these clowns to get exposed.
This makes sense, except, Twenty, you always seem so focused on punishment.
Don’t we need to work on the job that is offered, and make it far less attractive to those who would abuse their position? And maybe take away the individual power that enables people to take the bribes, etc. More policing from within. And total accountability, yes.
How many times have we seen governments kicked out by people voting for a new crew who promise to end corruption – and then are themselves kicked out because of their own corruption by a new lot who have promised to end corruption …
And It’s not just places like the Indian sub-continent or the Philippines – I remember B.liar’s mob riding into office because of Tory sleaze and it wasn’t long before the corruption scandals surfaced in New Labour.
‘Power of recall’ clauses in Dail, Senate and Council level would do it.
Not on the basis of petitions but on the basis of an agreed ethical code for public servants and obvious breaches of same.
That’ll be 159,000 thousand plus expenses please. Ker-ching.
jo, i think the reason twenty focuses on punishment is that appealing to the transgressors better nature just won’t work, mainly because they don’t have one. the honour system doesn’t even work properly with small things like the tea/coffee fund in work, so why would it work when the gains from not playing fair are so much bigger. taking away individual power won’t work either – no one is accountable then for any decisions made or actions taken, good or bad, and things would take a hell of a lot longer to do and cost us a lot more. only thing that needs to be changed is the laws concerning how easily it is to bring a case against/fine/imprison/dismiss anyone who breaks the rules, and some sort of formal method for requesting an investigation. reporters do a reasonable job of finding stuf out, it’s just that it becomes a story that ussually just fizzles out. if that story then bacame the basis for legal investigation, would be the only workable solution
I think there’s probably quite a few politicians shitting themselves at the moment. Although it was ridiculous that Callely fiddled the 81k travelling expenses and might just have gotten away with it to some degree (it seems that the rules governing primary residences were ambiguous enough that he obviously thought he’d have enough wiggle room), all it took was ONE article in ONE newspaper to finish him completely. Caught with his hand in the till, nowhere to turn, no denying it. Pilloried by his cohorts for drawing attention to the expenses trough and good living that is Irish public life. The minute you hear this expression from one of his own party – “he should consider his position”, it’s bye bye baby. Apart from any regulatory body (I wouldn’t hold my breath) what’s needed in the meantime is for more journalists to put the boot in on these fuckers, keep on exposing them as they find them. Everyone now knows without any doubt what callely is – a thief, pure and simple. His neighbours know it, his wife knows it, his kids classmates and teachers know it.
What about that mullagh Dempsey and his Government jet trip to Derry/Donegal? At a cost of €100,000 to the taxpayer, if de papers are to be believed, when he could have done it for a couple of hundred on a scheduled flight. Cunt.
Anyone see Prime Time last night?
They made an interesting comparison in their intro piece between the reactions of Callely and Ahern when they were faced with allegations of wrongdoing.
The ‘Anger/Bewilderment/Hiding’ strategy, with Bertie as the mentor and Ivor as the student.
It’s up on the RTÉ player, at the beginning of last night’s Prime Time.
What I’m particularly enjoying about the Callely thing is the po-faced seriousness of certain other Senators like Denis O’Donovan who is on the Oireachtas Committee investigating Callely.
Interesting Committee member is the bould Denis- 90,000euros claimed over 2007-2008 in expenses and a near neighbour of Calleleys.
O’Donovan is the one who threw Callely an opening in the second interview he had before the Committee, asking him if there were any personal reasons for being unsure about what to do ….
O’Donovan’s firm of solicitors in Cork also acted for the Callely’s in various maneouverings around the Kilcrohane property.
Conflict of interest much?
The segment of Prime Time dealing with Ivor is at http://tinyurl.com/PrimeIvor
“Justice moves slowly in Ireland”
I would be in court next Wednesday for nicking 50 quid
@Twenty
It can’t be fixed – Irish Politics is broken like Vincent Browne exasperates frequently.
He was the Taoiseach’s nominee ( If this hasn’t already been mentioned ) – Bertie’s nominee.
I think he has something on Bertie, or else maybe he’s be made a sacrificial lamb as you suggest – we know Bertie to be a cunt, but a clever one never the less.
I think ultimately there must be blood split for radical change. I don’t know how near that is, if at all.
It’s becoming apparent that at the time of Callely’s decision to “relocate” and at the time “someone” put dodgy invoices through his expenses, he was battling to pay a series of mortgages.
These problems haven’t gone away either.
He might be rustling up a nice noose for himself as we speak, and I don’t want to see that happen, because the rush to change the focus from “greedy bastard” to “poor servant hounded by the meeja” will make me ill.
The leading politicians are in the pay of international business. Look how all the western leaders end up on guaranteed big fee speech circuits after they’re finished in politics. That’s their pay off after leaving office so they can’t be done for taking bribes. You simply take the bribe AFTER.
Bill Clinton
Tony Blair
Bertie Ahern
Bertie Ahern?
Boobies
don’t forget john major — that dreary cunt has made a fortune in america over the past decade.
It’s a simplification but
Most of the world
Vote for me and I’ll do what’s right
NI
Vote for me and I’ll do the other side
ROI
Vote for me and I’ll see you right
At Least JM has interesting snaps of Edwina!
Most western democracies are the same now. Same fucking laws, same main streets, same companies, same cops. Even the same stuff is the same.
My 21 year old daughter, who has no experience at any fucking thing, has written a fabulous rom com novel. Im hoping that it becomes an international best seller and maybe even make it to the big screen. can you imagine the money she could make out of all this? Im just keeping my fingers crossed and i have advised her to open up several foreign bank accounts just in case the little pets dreams are realised. Fantasy? I think not.
And it aint gunna get any better. A hundred years from now, the same old shit.
Why dont all the self employed,sole traders etc start submitting absolutely stupid unreceipted expense claims to the revenue commissioners and if they kick up just tell them that it is your entitlement and in keeping with official government policy. OK,it might not work, but they cant send everyone to jail so why not try it.
We’re not far off a sitaution where somebody is brazenly going to start behaving like a politician and start filling their boots.
Come the court case it might get interesting if that miscreant can show the relevant charge is unconstitutional as it does not apply to all citizens.
Lads, sign the houses over to the missus and kids and tell the finance company ‘here’s a fiver its all I own. Everything else belongs to the family who don’t have any finance agreements with you’.
Problem solved.
Focus on punishment. We need our leaders to have power and influence. When they serve with honor they should be rewarded. When they are corrupt they should be ruined.
they also seem to have forgotten the reason that initially politicians were paid good money…it was in the hope (the same as judges) that a very good salary, including expenses would help to preclude the sort of corruption we are still experiencing. The whole “have my cake and eat it, and yours since the government is payin’” has become a farce…they are so far up their own holes its not even funny. Public service is not an entitlement, it’s (well…was) supposed to be an honourable job for the betterment of the community. I mean when you look at it;
– TD’s who were teachers still claiming teachers salaries?
– using family members as drivers/use of cars
– holiday homes/living homes…
what the fuck? Ireland is only a couple of hundred miles long…
I would say more but this is getting me down. The state of the health service/country is unreal.
Its no accident that the two professions that are massively overrepresented in Irish politics are teachers and lawyers.
Both professions require one similar characteristic- the ability to stand on hind legs and talk in public. What is said doesn’t matter- its just the ability to do that.
Why do teachers have this cast iron guarantee that someone will keep their seat warm if they try their hand at politics? You only have to breeze through the constitution to see the swiss cheese result of allowing lawyers to play with principles.
Ordinary people are not represented in Irish politics- its a playground for lower middle class professionals to social climn through the medium of collecting personal influence and wealth.
We don’t have representational democracy in Ireland and we never have had.
I just read about all this now, it’s a disgrace and all but as said he’s an easy target in a time when everybody is broke and angry. We all let Bertie slide on the Mahon Tribunal because we had our wonderful jobs in the financial services, Bebo and Gerry Ryan to keep us happy.
Twenty your new header graphic has way too much bevel and drop shadow on it
I dream of guillotines.
Blunt ones.
Just back from our Alex “Hurricane” Higgins wake. He’d know what to do to Bertie Ahern.
The laws in this country punish the poor and protect the rich. The poor go to jail. The rich don’t. The rich bankroll Fianna Fail. Ansbacher – no prosecutions; DCC – No prosecution. The poor don’t even vote, never mind bankroll.
The laws, which protect white-collar criminals, protected by an obedient police-force, have been written by FF for the last 100 years. And their cronies. Repeat ad nauseum; Ireland is a text-book example of a corrupt, third-world country.
Berie Ahern made Liam Lawlor a Chairman of The Dail Ethics Committee, still thinks Ray Burke is kosher and brought Beverly Cooper-Flynn back into Fianna Fail. He signed books of balnk cheques for his previous boss Charlie Haughey and nothing happened about that either. You can judge a mans character by the company he keeps. Fianna Fail is corrupt scum protected by laws they created for themselves and their cronies.
And as Captain says, put a cap on teachers and solicitors representing the public. The majority of people in this country are now a bunch of greedy, selfish mé fein cunts – we meet them everyday – and it’s no coincidence that those professions are running the show to create such a country of cunts.
The only thing that can be done twenty is to rip-up this and start again.
http://i34.tinypic.com/2ivh460.jpg
RIP Alex.
very well done itchy
And it goes on…
http://tinyurl.com/wrigglewriggle
Echoes of Bertie indeed.
Top sentence for me Git;
“In the statement, Mr Callely said considerable [I]distress had been caused to himself and his family[/I] by the latest suggestions of wrongdoing”
Christ…they are so off the pulse of the attitude of the public its not even funny…
or perchance could it be them fuckers don’t even care…either way whenever I see the stupid articles that get produced every year that say “ireland in top 10 for this…” and “top 20 for that…” I just laugh
I believe Transparency Ireland which is affiliated to Transparency International released a report last year claiming that there wasn’t much of an issue with corruption in Ireland.
Transparency Ireland is run out of Trinity College I believe so either there is some dickhead there with an eye on a Senate nomination from the University system or else students at Ireland’s top University really are as fucking stupid as Beckett claimed.
‘The cream of Ireland- rich and thick.’
By the way Callely’s son Ronan was 20 years of age and unemployed since conspicuously not graduating from Trinners.
Never held down a fill time job, 20 years of age and attempting to follow in Dadda’s footsteps by running for Councillor in Clontarf in June of last year. Using a mobile phone with a number that was one digit different to the phone Ivor claimed for from the Senate. And it wasn’t a number on the end either- the difference between 086 and 087 at the START of the mobile number.
Transparency Ireland my hole.
I’m a beveloholic, Bob
Cap’n – a gigantic, back slapping, nepotistic fraud.
fucking excellent repsones on this forum; wake up to find callely has issued another bullshit statement
captain – do you work for gchq?…that info is a nugget of gold
twenty sums this shithole up just perfectly there
i’m doing the dishes* to this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnI28bdZylM
*just remembered the only thing I miss about not buying the irish times anymore, that radio reviewer guy quentin fortune – he has a thing about the dishes and hoovering too, think that’s his name. the irish times gone to the dogs in the last 10 years sums it all up too.
bring down the government, they don’t speak for us
line stolen from this song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgzeqwhNTDk
wax on, wax off
Speaking at the Tullamore Show, Mr Cowen said that he has no power to remove Mr Callely from the Seanad even though he is a nominee of former taoiseach Bertie Ahern
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0808/callelyi.html
and the reason he has no power to remove Callely? answers on a postcard please. Starting with “because Ivor has something on all of us” and/or ” FF created the corrupt system”
Is it not time for the Military to step in and take control of this river of shit off the european mainland? let us take a peek at this river,police highest paid in europe, USLESS gangs out of control shootings on a daily basis,gangs of doped up toerags strutting their stuff all over said river,Politicians nobody twisted their arm to take the job one of the highest paid careers in the world they could not run a bath never mind a country, just off the press the Lord Mayor of Cork gets more than the PM of Spain,the flat cap brigade from Kerrygold a couple of hundred grand, the ex Peacock T Shock gets thirty grand for foundation cream and so on and on,The Military must step in and throw out these Cretins they and the chattering classes got us into this mess and given their track record will not leave the gravy train unless thrown off. Flt Lt Gerry Rawlins of the Ghana Air Force threw that pile of Political shit out of Ghana over corruption,has any of the Irish military got the balls to teach this gang of all persuasions they are past their sell by date and prosecutions are definitely in the offing.
Nonefortheroad
I want these dudes to take over; drum and bass; best gig of all I saw on the beeb glastonbury
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6esneaW14o
@ Martin: I think it came fairly close to having the military step in before the bank guarantee, so I don’t think Cowen is his own man now (if ever he was) and we’re far from out of Fangorn Forest yet.
As to Callely and his ilk, I just hope at the next election people do actually remember to throw all their sheisters out on their asses. I hope also that the new government will institute 2 weeks statutory redundancy for TDs who lose their jobs (like the rest of us!) and get rid of expenses and all these trappings that cost more than I’ve ever earned in my life. Pack of crooks, they need to go!
The only redundancies I want to hear about in future is the news that Ireland Inc has made all 166 employees of it’s Hot Air manufacturing plant in Leinster House redundant. This comes on top of the 60 people made redundant in Seanad Eireann, which is one of the country’s top producers of Verbal Diarrhea…
Somebody made a comment earlier on about most politicians being in politics with altruistic motives, ie other than to further their own gains (financial gain, gain of influence, getting the inside track, building contacts and favours for use later, etc). I thought at the time there might be some merit to that argument, but then I tried to think of politicians that would fit into this category. Somebody help me out here, but I can only think of one (Michael D. Higgins). It’s pretty fucking depressing actually.
I honestly don’t think anybody who served in government over the last 10 years should be let anywhere near a government job in future. They have bolloxed up this country in such a spectacular fashion.
Bertie Ahern isn’t in it for the money.
Beverly Cooper Flynn isn’t in for the money
Jackie Healy-Rae isn’t in it for the money.
Mary Coughlan isn’t in it for the money
Only joking, Fianna Fail and their cronies are in it for the money.
I want to see policy from prospective next government reversing all the gravy-train shit engaged in by FF/Mary Harney etc to stay in power. e.g 40 grand extra if you are an independent. i.e. 40 grand to vote with FF. Getting paid to turn up for work has to be in a policy document to go. 12 week summer holidays, teacher mentality captain..and Grainne Seoige locked up in gitmo has to be in a policy doc.
on that note, good night
this note
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxqdVdMmJ-M&feature=related
You have a good ear too itchy
As far as I know Callely can’t be fired because he was elected to the Seanad. ‘Nominee’ means he was nominated to run as opposed to an ‘Appointee’ who was appointed directly.
But Cowen should put pressure on Callely both privately and publicly and make it clear the sleveen must be gone. And Callely should just stop and this fucking around and go. He’s Taking up far too much time.
And another thing. When Governments are known to be corrupt, it encourages tax evasion and corruption among private business owners, therefore driving down the tax take and threatening public services and economic growth. It was like that in 1980s with everyone scamming large scale.
Itchy & Twenty,
It was noticeable that it was Ogra FF who made the first move inside the party on Callely- no Senior FF member of the Parliamentary Party commented until RTE finally got around to reporting the Callely issue three days after the Mail on Sunday article.
There is a distinct smell of Callely knowing where political bodies are buried and also a whiff of fear around FF as to whether he’ll press the nuclear button if someone doesn’t get him off the hook.
As for myself I reserve the right to rant about Callely but what I’m also doing is compiling a list of local council election candidates (elected or not) who have a Mammy or Dadda who is a member of the Dail or Senate and I will be spreadsheeting their contact mobiles from the campaign literature.
From there I will be sending the details on to Gavin Sheridan and anyone else who is interested- I want to see how many (if any) embryonic Fianna Failers may have been using phones suspiciously close in identity to fully expensed Dail and Senate phones.
If I do find evidence of such misuse the Election Commission will also receive a detailed schedule as a candidate using what appears to be an Oireachtas phone has an advantage over a candidate without- and of course the Oireachtas member involved if proven will have to face questions.
If anyone has any information on sons, daughters, nieces and nephews of sitting Oireachtas members who were candidates in last year’s local and euro elections (June 2009) please do drop the details into this thread on political world.
http://www.politicalworld.org/showthread.php?t=3376
cheers
will do captain. thanks mosheen.
HM – they enacted legislation to shut down headshops in double-quick time. there’s no reason why they can’t fuck around with appointee/nominee legislation if they want to. laws for themselves the fucks. dan boyle and pail gogarty ate my hamster. didn’t mention emmett stagg