If there’s any one piece of evidence you need that should make you vote yes to the Lisbon Treaty is that’s Cóir have launched their NO campaign.
Cóir, of course, are are front for pro-life cunts Youth Defence.
Read about Cóir, Richard Greene and Justin Barrett of Youth Defence.
I do not have the words to explain the contempt in which I hold Youth Defence or anybody associated with them. They are hackneyed, ignorant, anti-gay, anti-immigration, right wing Catholic bullies of the worst kind who view women as second class citizens.
Suffice to say that I will not align myself with them in any way.
I understand exactly why you loathe that particular crowd of fascists, however it’s not a good reason to vote ‘yes’. No more than Michael O’Leary advocating a ‘yes’ should encourage union members to vote ‘no’.
I only want people to vote yes so they don’t win. We’re up to our necks in the EEC, too late to do anything about it now.
And I’m abstaning anyway. They’re all cunts.
I voted yes last time because that was exactly what Sinn Féin didn’t want me to do.
The true hilarity this time out comes from that crowd of cunts ‘we belong’ or some shit like that who ran their launch yesterday and found that ‘worryingly’ 37% of people aged 24-40 didn’t know which way they would vote.
This same crowd – and this is true, Indo reported it a few weeks ago – found that the word ‘yes’ polled poorly with young people around the Lisbon treaty because it was associated with the losing side last time out.
Vote positively for lisbon.
Vote affirmative for lisbon.
Vote for lisbon.
don’t vote no for lisbon.
Vote for the People’s front of Judea.
Yeah, but that’s the curious thing, since it’s “too late to do anything about it now” how can voting ‘no’ make any difference?
And then there’s all that shite about “not being at the centre of Europe” if we vote ‘no’ again. So, if we vote ‘yes’ Ireland will swop places with Switzerland?
ha, i got a “vote no” leaflet from Cóir in the post.
For that reason alone i’m tempted to vote yes.
Their reasons for voting no were all incredibly weak, somehow they’re trying to blame our country getting less competitive on foreigners reducing the average wage in Ireland.
And the front of the leaflet has a “greedy corrupt politician” with greasy hair and spots with money falling out of his suit jacket.
It looks as convincing as Fair City, actually i think the guy doing it might be from Fair City.
Maybe voting no means we won’t get money for people to build roads to outsource to huge Spanish conglomerates to run the tolls on and … oh.
I’m surprised Cóir aren’t calling it the Abortion Treaty.
even the worst criminal speaks the truth sometimes; a plea from the Netherlands – there could not ever be a valid reason for voting ‘yes’,
read http://www.steuniersnee.nl/index.php?topic=IrishNo
I’m not a woman but if I was I’d like to be able to have an abortion any time I wanted. fuck coir.
Oh yawn. Same old Lisbon bollocks all over again. Same half baked policies. Same political bickering. Same scare mongering.
We need to get into Europe fully and abandon our half American/half European position. It’s not working for us.
Twenty is right. If you are in any doubt or if you are too lazy to inform yourself, just look at who is asking you to vote no. A yes vote is the only conclusion. I hate the government as much as anyone, but this is not a vote for or against the government.
Simon North, don’t know who is behind that site, but looks highly dodgy to me…
The No-camp have all the odds against them: coir, Sinn Féin, etc.
I listened to Michael O’Leary and he owes a lot to Europe and I really enjoyed listening to him, but the Lisbon treaty is a slippery road away from democracy, away from local and national parliaments and onwards to a big Federal State of Europe.
The further away the democracy the less influence people will have in the feature.
The treaty is in essence the same as the constitution, and the only reason they name it a treaty is to bypass any referendum. So that the people of Europe don’t have a say in anything.
That’s why the EU parliament was so upset the Irish voted no. We took away their toy to play with us…
Unfortunately I’m not Irish so I can’t even raise my voice by voting. Thanks to the treaty they took away my no vote.
If the Irish vote no, we are told to be afraid of consequences in the feature. Rubbish. The existing treaties prevent that. The EU will continue as it has today and as it has been since the Nice treaty.
I had been reading up, listening to the different arguments, making an effort to make the right decision. Then I saw the Cóir poster this morning. So, “Yes” it is.
I voted no last time solely as a test of democracy. Sadly, the Irish government and the entire European Union failed the test by refusing to accept the democratic will of the people as I predicted they would.
As for being at “the centre of Europe”, why does anyone believe that a poxy little island containg a few million wretches is at the centre of anything. We’re not and we never will be.
Yes or no, we’ll continue to be governed by a shower of incompetent, corrupt, self-serving cunts.
dont be a cunt. vote yes.
I share your contempt for them and I think it is a disgrace women can’t avail of an abortion here. There is no justification for a women with cancer or a women who has been raped suffering the further indignity of having to go to England. We live in a democracy where free choice should be fundamental and anyone preventing people from exercising their choice in my mind is a despicable human being. It annoys me no end to hear men getting their two cent in on the issue when clearly it is a woman’s issue. But, I am still voting No to Lisbon, we might as well surrender what’s left of the free state if we sign up to it.
Go to the EU website, ignore all external factors, spend a little time reading the Treaty, be open minded and then make a decision. I have no doubt it will be No.
It annoys me no end to hear men getting their two cent in on the issue when clearly it is a woman’s issue
I’m assuming you mean the men from Youth Defence and such.
Frankly the whole Lisbon thing is a fucking shambles.
Yes or no, we’ll continue to be governed by a shower of incompetent, corrupt, self-serving cunts.
Precisely. So all things being equal, who the fuck would want to be on the side of the nut-job religious extremists?
Not that I should put my nose into your politics but I agree with Conan Drumm you can’t vote against something cause a group you hate supports the issue.
Sometimes there are good causes with bad suporters and BAD cause with what arguably should be good people backing them for example Jews for Hitler
http://extremepolitics.blogspot.com/2007/03/jews-for-hitler.html
Personaly my politics is left wing and sometimes I shake my head at some of the supporters of causes I believe in.
There are a lot of whack jobs out there in the world of politics
Off course Twenty, they are mental. They remind me of that man who used to stand outside the Ilac centre with a microphone harping on about the how the end draw nigh . This country plagued by do gooders.
With specific reference to the Lisbon Treaty if read each of the articles and look at the countries who have opted out of various “obligations”. People should just dedicate one hour to reading this, just think about the implications for yourself and your family and then make an informed decision.
I have a vote no to Lisbon t-shirt and have been wearing it at every opportunity.
Wow, Nonny, it’s not like you to be on the side of the crazies.
Oh, hang on…
but the Lisbon treaty is a slippery road away from democracy, away from local and national parliaments and onwards to a big Federal State of Europe. The further away the democracy the less influence people will have in the feature.
Um – so why does it give member state parliaments the power to review and reject EU proposals?
http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie/lisbon_treaty_other_proposed_changes.html
Any why does it provide for the Citizen’s Initiative?
Seems a rum way to move democracy away from the people, eh?
I heartily recommend that anyone waffling on about how we’re signing away the free state actually read the consolidated version of the treaty.
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/JOHtml.do?uri=OJ:C:2008:115:SOM:EN:HTML
Using the same logic, vote No! because the Governments wants you to say Yes.
I don’t ever want the Dail to have the power to rubber stamp European treaties. We have no way of determining what they might contain or their legal effect. For each one we might agree with there may be others we would completely disagree with. The further removed policy and law-making is from European citizens the more it may be influenced by coporate and other lobby interests.
Remember the way we had to ‘copperfasten’ the legal prohibition against abortion? And we did it, and then the courts went and interpreted things differently?
Well now we’re being told that the add-on guarantees to the Lisbon Treaty ‘copperfasten’ the issues that supposedly concerned us so much that we voted ‘no’ last time.
The European Court of Justice will interpret these guarantees long after the Lisbon dust has settled. It’s the Alice in Wonderland system of governance – It means what we say it means! (until it’s tested in the courts)
To clarify – I’m using the abortion amendment as an example of meaningless legal idiocy, and I think the Lisbon ‘guarantees’ have a similar legal standing.
Whatever, lets not annoy everybody else and refrain the usual rubbish.
Anybody know what happened to Libertas? Are they gone now?
I think that even worse than Coir is the Zionist cunts that want us to vote No, now they do kill women and children…cunts.
I have read the treaty, yeah I know, get a life? and it is a shit treaty, anyone I know that has read it thinks so too. Unfortunately If we vote yes we will end up with the flawed treaty and still have that shower of cunts, waving aborted foetus posters in our faces.
Even the EU is afraid to take on the greedy might of the Roman masters, we will have to do that ourselves regardless.
Conan, if your comment was in response to mine – the treaty doesn’t give power to parliaments to rubber stamp treaties. Those still require a referendum in this state (other states have their own laws in that regard).
Lisbon does give member state parliaments review powers over EU legislation and policy – “for example, green papers, white papers, proposals for directives and regulations”.
Conan, what would make you vote yes?
300 pages – then decide “Yes or No” . Democracy at work ?
Total and utter bollix.
Just because the Hitler Youth say vote “No”, doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to vote Yes!
Any intelligent person knows they are all bonkers extremists, who would like us all to be wearing Aran jumpers and tweed trousers, with the comely maids dancing at the crossroads, with their red hair in ringlets, and their skirts down past their knees.
DeValera’s “vision” of an Ireland that never existed, in other words.
All they are is a bunch of oppressive gaelgoirs, and as a woman, I’m voting No, cos they deserve to be ignored!
Also, I voted No last time, and I’m pissed off that the Government has the cheek to ask the same question again, even though the people have already spoken!
I’m pissed off that the Government has the cheek to ask the same question again, even though the people have already spoken!
Because the only thing worse than too little democracy is too much democracy, eh?
This “no means no” shite pisses me off. No one is forcing you to change your vote to yes. You’re not bloody Mustaffa from Austin Powers. Just note no again, if that’s what you want.
Complaining that another referendum is undemocratic is just fucking stupid.
Woesinger, you’re a facist knob!
Just for the laugh I’m going to vote ‘No’ just to see if the Government has the audacity to put it to the people a THIRD time. Then it really will be a ‘You’re going to vote until you get it right’ democracy.
Ah yes, the Bertie Aherne school of democracy:
Keep voting until they get the result they want!
A bit like the Idi Amin and Pol Pot school of democracy, that!
Seems like we regular folk are fucked either way we vote, theres some absolute showers o’ cunts on boths sides of the spectrum.
PS: democracy is an obvious sham, an illusion of choice.
Heh, The ballot paper reads:
1. Yes, please ratify the Lisbon Treaty
2. No, do not ratify the Lisbon Treaty but please torture and murder me and my entire family.
I wouldn’t put anything past the cunts in Government, if they thought they’d get away with it!
V, I think the Lisbon Treaty is a quick-fix in the absence of political will (especially in France and Germany) to develop a European Constitution, voted in by all European citizens.
The absence of a constitution, together with the consolidation of policy-making within the institutions of the EU/EC, creates a breeding ground for the sort of rabid nationalism the EEC/EC/EU was supposedly set up to eliminate. The marginalisation of the voters of Europe is a recipe for disaster.
The notion of a national veto is meaningless if a democratic electorate is deemed ignorant until it votes according to the wishes of the European establishment.
If the expressed democratic will of the people is wrong, then we may as well live in an autocracy and take whatever unpalatable laws are handed down to us (with the autocrats’ court as our only court of appeal).
Woesinger (1.20pm),
“The Lisbon Treaty now proposes to give the European Council (Heads of Government) the power to propose changes to certain parts of the governing Treaties, although this proposed power is quite limited. Any such change cannot increase the competence of the EU – the scope of its powers (see page 27). In addition, any such proposals must be agreed unanimously by the European Council, meaning that any one member state may veto such a proposal. If the European Council does agree a proposed change, then in order for it to come into effect, it must be ratified by the member states in accordance with their own constitutional requirements. This may require a referendum in Ireland as happens at present.”
From the link you posted. There’s a legal world of difference between the word – will – and the word “may” as it is used in the last sentence.
Like Conan said and also, the initial construct and system which produces such a document requesting a yes/no is deeply flawed ( Think it was Irish MEP Patrica McKenna who asked for this treaty veto )
So now we push and pull a huge document which no one with a will to live will read entirely, and scare monger/badger people into an answer.
Think the people spoke more about this system then to the treaty itself, last time out. But they spoke.
The reality is that a no vote will be seen in Europe as a big fuck off to Europe. There will be a backlash if we vote no, that is certain.
The EU is responsible for any piece of progressive legislation put in place in Ireland for the last 30 years. Apart altogether from all the financial benefits, without the EU, we would still be a crowd of bog-trotting, mass-attending, forelock-tugging turnip munchers. Forget about nationalism or the erosion of democracy – do you seriously think you have any input as to how this country is run?? Get real, ignore the cranks and go with Lisbon. Europe, despite what people think, is not full of people planning our downfall.
Actually the ballot Paper reads:
Tes
No (wait a month see how you feel)
Yes (ah go on third time lucky)
No Fucking hell how many times….
Yes: or no supper tonight
No: we’ll keep at this until you get it right
El Cuno, I never thought about it that way, but you have a point about any decent legislation here originating in Europe!
But the Fianna Fail factor is putting me off, as it did the last time.
If they say yes, I say no.
Avoiding the question there Conan.
Yippee, I’m no fan of the shower of gobshites we call the government either, but you have to seperate the two issues. There will be a general election this Autumn anyway as they will make a balls of the budget making cutbacks in frontline services instead of tackling the unions and vested interests in the civil service, so we can stick it to them then. Get Lisbon out of the way first though.
Here in Nova Scotia they had wet and dry counties and every couple of years they would hold votes in the dry counties to become wet ones. But once a county voted to go wet there was never again another vote held if they wanted to go back.
Basically they will give you enough democracy till they get the answer wanted then it’s taken away from you.
So lets see how many time the EU will give you the right to vote till you get the right answer.
V, not intentionally. But then my position is that we’re being asked the wrong question, again.
“I voted yes last time because that was exactly what Sinn Féin didn’t want me to do.”
Ditto. SF are a bunch of cunts.
What question should we be asked?
Fucking Ire politics is like a soap opera – I am thinking – and I know you guys are living this and mean no disrespect – with a bit of production you could sell tickets to the show.
I was actually out walking the Dog the other day talking to an Irish National and he was telling me how a number of Immigrants would get like $300K Loans – just business loans as contractors – totally unsecured – transfer the money back to their home country and then just disappear? Fucking WOW>
Doodle, your Irish guy sounds like the kind of bloke I would personally give 300k to fuck off and emigrate and not come back.
He didn’t do it – he was just telling me that it occurred -
Seems unlikely, Doodle. Unless you’re very well connected the only place you’re getting that much money unsecured is robbing a bank.
Woesinger (12:43),
Example:
all regulations laid down by the Council and Commission and agreed upon by the Parliament will be law in every member state. (article 288, functioning of the EU)
No rubber stamp needed from national parliaments.
The funny thing is that the EU parliament and the Council can only amend proposals from the Commission.
And if they don’t get to an agreement than a Conciliation Committee can be formed.
Yes they can reject, but with all the steps in between and that Conciliation Committee…
It’s making sure that national laws will become less and less. Until there is a Federal state of Europe.
If citizens complain they can only do that to the Ombudsman or by going to the EU court.
And only when it’s out of line with the treaties then they can be overruled.
New proposals can be made by citizens but how?
they can use article 11.4. But then they need citizens in a [u]significant[/u] number of other member states. AND have a number exceeding 1 million.
Yes the treaty is going to be a very easy, transparent and open democracy.
For the above to understand you have to whistle through about half a dozen different articles divided over different PDFs in that consolidated version you’re linking to.
And then try to figure out what those [i]appropriate means[/i] are, that are mentioned in article 11.1.
But yeah, all these safeguards to protect democracy are not needed. As national governments (the Council) choose the Commission, and the citizens choose the Parliament.
The Irish had over a year now to read through the consolidated version. It’s at least an improvement over the 1 month term they where given before they voted the first time. (the consolidated version was drawn up early May 2008)
we might as well surrender what’s left of the free state if we sign up to it.
Which parts of the free state are worth preserving Nonny ? Seriously. The corruption, the repression of women, the homophobia, the child abuse that was tolerated, the terrible schooling, the selling of children ? Really, which parts are you worried about losing?
clearly it is a woman’s issue
How strange, I always thathough that both men and women made babies and that it wasn’t just women who started out as embryos.
“How strange, I always thathough that both men and women made babies and that it wasn’t just women who started out as embryos.”
No way, I always thought only a women could have an abortion. Maybe we are both mistaken.
That offensively stupid poster of the Stepford Wife telling us in vaguely threatening undertones that she is “safer in Europe” is reason enough for me to vote no.
Love Irishmen,
The Treaty of Lisbon you will only do harm.
I come from Germany and I put down new every day, was sold to our country.
We do not oppose us in Germany, makes against this inhuman contract.
The agreement resolves our constitution and leaves us no other choice than the inhuman capitalism properly be.
I beg you, let the Lisbon treaty a second time to fail.
Each individual dignity of the working class is no longer existent.
And I think you want not even a Tony Blair, as an EU president.
Any form of more democracy in Europe, as super state, sets the municipal decision-making powers down to a minimum.
To you, the Irishman is probably all Europeans …
Florian Becker
Potsdam
Germany
Lisbon will dismantle our immigration controls because of Paragraph 7 of the referendum legislation (allowing the government to take us into the passport-free Schengen Area, and to surrender the vetoes on asylum and immigration by surrendering Protocol 21), as well as the Charter of Fundamental Rights, which gives the European Court of Justice jurisdiction over asylum. Article 15.1 of the Charter allows asylum-seekers to work, but the UK has an optout from it. That means that Ireland and Malta would be the only countries to allow asylum-seekers to work, leading to Ireland being inundated with asylum-seekers including many currently living in the UK. If they are not allowed to work over there, they will come here. At present, Ireland doesn’t allow them to work. In a recession, now is not the time to be liberalising the rules.
Further, since Spain voted yes, unemployment there has doubled to 18%. The ‘guarantee’s are not legally-binding because they are not part of the Treaties. I was admitted on Prime Time (RTE) a few days ago that we don’t have legally-binding guarantees on workers-rights. The statement on retaining a Commissioner is also not legally binding. Why wasn’t it included in the Council “decisions”? The ECJ struck down an EU regulation implementing a UN Security Council Resolution freezing terrorist assets on September 3rd last year, so they won’t respect an agreement deposited with the UN, which the yes side claim they will. Vote No.
“rticle 15.1 of the Charter allows asylum-seekers to work, but the UK has an optout from it. That means that Ireland and Malta would be the only countries to allow asylum-seekers to work,” The only English speaking countries in the EU I mean.
“Um – so why does it give member state parliaments the power to review and reject EU proposals?”Wrong Woesinger. The powers for national parliaments are only advisory. This is another “big lie” from the yes camp I keep hearing repeating on the radio, including by Labour and RTE figures. The reality is that the provisions of the Protocol on Subsidiarity and the Protocol on the Role of National Parliaments only give national parliaments an advisory role, and even that depends on one-third of all national parliaments agreeing to do so. It’s worthless. Same with the Citizens Initiative – non-binding.
El Cuno, the only Europe that will object ot us voting no is the Europe of the elites. McCreevy was right when he recently said that 95% of Europeans would reject Lisbon if given referenda. Likewise, the former Czech PM who negotiated Lisbon told the European Parliament in a speech that the Czechs would reject it in a referendum too. We are not isolated. It’s the elites who are isolated for refusing to listen to their peoples by giving them a referendum or – in the case of France and Holland – refusing to take the “no” votes of their peoples for an answer. If this passes, democracy will be dead in Europe, because the elites will have succeeded in taking away the right to self-determination of nations objecting to Lisbon. The Brits will be voting on it next year anyway when the Tories get in, and they will certainly reject it. Likewise, the Scandinavian countries would vote no if given the chance. We are not alone. The elites are the ones who are alone. And as for the Brussels money, we paid for it and more with our fishing-rights given up.