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	<title>Comments on: What do you have to do to get sacked?</title>
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		<title>By: Ex-Pat</title>
		<link>http://twentymajor.net/2008/05/08/what-do-you-have-to-do-to-get-sacked/#comment-33113</link>
		<dc:creator>Ex-Pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 09:01:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twentymajor.net/?p=1427#comment-33113</guid>
		<description>Your points are well-made and I agree totally. The accountability I advocate is one of checks and balances and honesty - not a witch-hunting. Mistakes do happen. It&#039;s not apparent, from the outside (and I no longer live in Ireland (and thus rely on the sensationalist, personal opinion reporting that passes for journalism, with lots of finger-pointing and loud calls for heads on platters)) that doctors and nurses live in fear because they feel unprotected by a service that they give their lives to. My initial post on this was an attempt to get discussion starting with the doctors and nurses (you&#039;ll forgive my emotive input (I hope), given that I am the mother of a 4-year old boy and am about to have another baby (due today)).  Their voices are unheard. Unheard voices from the outside are interpreted as arrogance and not caring - not that they are afraid to open their mouths. It&#039;s a sorry state, no doubt. I&#039;m glad to have an informed, intelligent opinion though - thank you!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your points are well-made and I agree totally. The accountability I advocate is one of checks and balances and honesty &#8211; not a witch-hunting. Mistakes do happen. It&#8217;s not apparent, from the outside (and I no longer live in Ireland (and thus rely on the sensationalist, personal opinion reporting that passes for journalism, with lots of finger-pointing and loud calls for heads on platters)) that doctors and nurses live in fear because they feel unprotected by a service that they give their lives to. My initial post on this was an attempt to get discussion starting with the doctors and nurses (you&#8217;ll forgive my emotive input (I hope), given that I am the mother of a 4-year old boy and am about to have another baby (due today)).  Their voices are unheard. Unheard voices from the outside are interpreted as arrogance and not caring &#8211; not that they are afraid to open their mouths. It&#8217;s a sorry state, no doubt. I&#8217;m glad to have an informed, intelligent opinion though &#8211; thank you!</p>
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		<title>By: Dr.JaneDoe</title>
		<link>http://twentymajor.net/2008/05/08/what-do-you-have-to-do-to-get-sacked/#comment-33095</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr.JaneDoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 05:34:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twentymajor.net/?p=1427#comment-33095</guid>
		<description>There actually is-believe you me there is serious accountability in Ireland. Probably much more than in New Zealand. We live and work in fear in Ireland, all the time. Do you mean that you don&#039;t get to see it? Believe me it&#039;s there. I suspect what you mean is similar to what I was describing above, the victim and families want answers and to meet the doctor and get an explanation. That doesn&#039;t happen much in Ireland, sadly. But terrible things happen to a doctor&#039;s career and life if they fuck up in Ireland, you just don&#039;t see it as a lay person sometimes. A junior I know of asked a man if he was allergic to any antibiotics. He said no. She administered the appropriate antibiotic for his condition. He had an anaphylactic reaction and died. She didn&#039;t fuck up, but shit happens. And now her career is in tatters. 

That kidney being removed, while I don&#039;t really know the ins and outs of that story-sounds to me like a systems error. Do you really think that surgeon did it out of cruelty? For fun? He certainly can&#039;t be that incompetent if he removes a kidney, it&#039;s a difficult op, especially in a child. So you have a highly trained, competent and ethical individual....who made a mistake. Instead of knee jerking and firing him, why not try to find out why this happened? Is there an inadequate pre-op checking protocol? Were the workload and caseload too high? Did another member of staff make a &quot;left/right&quot; error in the notes which he then followed rather than rechecking due to time constraints? did someone mark the wrong kidney on the patient? If you identify the source of the error in the system and correct it, you will save more patients all over the country from similar things. Make it a learning experience for everyone, and not a punitive shameful thing that is hidden away so no-one finds out about it after the person is &quot;punished&quot; for making a mistake. 
Unfortunately, too often the Irish confuse &quot;accountability&quot; with &quot;being punished and made to pay&quot;. 
Here in NZ-I am responsible for my actions as a doctor. But if something goes wrong I know that I and everyone involved will learn from it, take steps to prevent it in the future, teach others about this potential mistake and both I and my future patients stand to profit from it, rather than me being punished for being a &quot;bad doctor who makes mistakes&quot;. Hospitals are chaotic, messy places. Medicine is not an exact science. There are many grey areas. If this trend towards punitive accountability in Ireland continues, things will only get worse and worse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There actually is-believe you me there is serious accountability in Ireland. Probably much more than in New Zealand. We live and work in fear in Ireland, all the time. Do you mean that you don&#8217;t get to see it? Believe me it&#8217;s there. I suspect what you mean is similar to what I was describing above, the victim and families want answers and to meet the doctor and get an explanation. That doesn&#8217;t happen much in Ireland, sadly. But terrible things happen to a doctor&#8217;s career and life if they fuck up in Ireland, you just don&#8217;t see it as a lay person sometimes. A junior I know of asked a man if he was allergic to any antibiotics. He said no. She administered the appropriate antibiotic for his condition. He had an anaphylactic reaction and died. She didn&#8217;t fuck up, but shit happens. And now her career is in tatters. </p>
<p>That kidney being removed, while I don&#8217;t really know the ins and outs of that story-sounds to me like a systems error. Do you really think that surgeon did it out of cruelty? For fun? He certainly can&#8217;t be that incompetent if he removes a kidney, it&#8217;s a difficult op, especially in a child. So you have a highly trained, competent and ethical individual&#8230;.who made a mistake. Instead of knee jerking and firing him, why not try to find out why this happened? Is there an inadequate pre-op checking protocol? Were the workload and caseload too high? Did another member of staff make a &#8220;left/right&#8221; error in the notes which he then followed rather than rechecking due to time constraints? did someone mark the wrong kidney on the patient? If you identify the source of the error in the system and correct it, you will save more patients all over the country from similar things. Make it a learning experience for everyone, and not a punitive shameful thing that is hidden away so no-one finds out about it after the person is &#8220;punished&#8221; for making a mistake.<br />
Unfortunately, too often the Irish confuse &#8220;accountability&#8221; with &#8220;being punished and made to pay&#8221;.<br />
Here in NZ-I am responsible for my actions as a doctor. But if something goes wrong I know that I and everyone involved will learn from it, take steps to prevent it in the future, teach others about this potential mistake and both I and my future patients stand to profit from it, rather than me being punished for being a &#8220;bad doctor who makes mistakes&#8221;. Hospitals are chaotic, messy places. Medicine is not an exact science. There are many grey areas. If this trend towards punitive accountability in Ireland continues, things will only get worse and worse.</p>
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		<title>By: Ex-Pat</title>
		<link>http://twentymajor.net/2008/05/08/what-do-you-have-to-do-to-get-sacked/#comment-33083</link>
		<dc:creator>Ex-Pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 12:45:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twentymajor.net/?p=1427#comment-33083</guid>
		<description>In reply to Dr. Jane Doe...I wasn&#039;t suggesting that &#039;the staff are all cunts&#039; and I&#039;m sorry if my post was interpreted as suggesting this. The system you describe in NZ sounds one to which the Irish health care system should aspire. From an outside viewpoint, it appears that there is no accountability and when its people&#039;s lives at stake, I feel that there should be accountability. I think that Mary Harney&#039;s head or whomever is not the answer because it obviously does not deal with the inherent &#039;ridiculous environment&#039; which you describe (and which you&#039;re qualified to describe, having worked in-it). And a further objective of my post was to instigate some intelligent dialogue on the issue (that did not materialize until your post!) I&#039;m not advocating a litigious environment (I lived for 10-years in the US and saw the adverse consequences of this approach). Had I the experience of what you describe, this is something I would suggest - accountability at all levels and a structure that supports this. There&#039;s no such structure in the Irish health care system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to Dr. Jane Doe&#8230;I wasn&#8217;t suggesting that &#8216;the staff are all cunts&#8217; and I&#8217;m sorry if my post was interpreted as suggesting this. The system you describe in NZ sounds one to which the Irish health care system should aspire. From an outside viewpoint, it appears that there is no accountability and when its people&#8217;s lives at stake, I feel that there should be accountability. I think that Mary Harney&#8217;s head or whomever is not the answer because it obviously does not deal with the inherent &#8216;ridiculous environment&#8217; which you describe (and which you&#8217;re qualified to describe, having worked in-it). And a further objective of my post was to instigate some intelligent dialogue on the issue (that did not materialize until your post!) I&#8217;m not advocating a litigious environment (I lived for 10-years in the US and saw the adverse consequences of this approach). Had I the experience of what you describe, this is something I would suggest &#8211; accountability at all levels and a structure that supports this. There&#8217;s no such structure in the Irish health care system.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr.JaneDoe</title>
		<link>http://twentymajor.net/2008/05/08/what-do-you-have-to-do-to-get-sacked/#comment-33072</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr.JaneDoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 May 2008 01:22:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twentymajor.net/?p=1427#comment-33072</guid>
		<description>&quot;Why start at the top? Why not sack the doctors/nurses directly responsible for wrong-doing, misdiagnosis? That poor child now without a healthy kidney…why look for Mary Harney’s head on a platter? Sack the people directly responsible - we wouldn’t be long cleaning up the health-service then. But no, much better to bang our chests and call for action that ain’t gonna happen, but it’s a safe option largely because of the points made by Nonny above.&quot;

Ex-Pat-that kind of &quot;Fuck all the fucking evil rich doctors and bitch nurses, they&#039;re shite and we should punich them for even existing&quot; attitude is EXACTLY the reason why I, and several colleagues, trained at the Irish taxpayers expense, worked in Ireland for a couple of miserable, awful years and then wised up and left for Oz and NZ, not to return. The kind of adversarial, litigious punitive health system that we have in Ireland currently is partially responsible for why it is so shit. People are so incredibly afraid of making mistakes and so wary of saying anything that could possibly be construed as an admission that something went wrong that the patients and relatives never know the full story, and can never find out any information or reasons why something has happened. As a doctor, when my own father was in hospital, it was even worse. The staff knew that I would question things, one day, in the same hospital where I worked, my father was asking me to tell him what was happening, and I didn&#039;t know, so I started looking at his Xrays. A nurse popped around, whipped it out of my hand, and started yelling at me that it was confidential and I had no business looking at it. I had to fight tooth and nail just to get any info at all. This is not the way it should be in healthcare. 
I work in NZ currently, and here a doctor or nurse cannot be sued or taken to court. There is a government funded body called the ACC (Accident Compensation Corporation) that compensates all victims of medical mishaps after a careful inquiry. This is beneficial for a number of reasons:
1)The victim ALWAYS gets compensation and assistance and does not have to go through the stressful and expensive process of getting a lawyer, fighting to obtain medical records, going to court etc, after going through a traumatic event. 
2)Defensive medicine is not practiced-again, more beneficial to patients and less strain on finite resources. 
3)Less stress for doctors and nurses who can carry out their job without fear. It&#039;s already stressful enough, you know. Death, sickness, anger, long hours all that, yeah? 
4)Better relations between patients and medical staff. You don&#039;t guard your every word for fear you will be sued and dragged though the courts and papers. They in turn, know you will be honest and open with them.
5) The above has a knock-on effect of creating a system of open disclosure and honesty. Where I work there is a Customer Service Dept and Patient Advocacy dept. Their sole job is to handle complaints, pull all relevant records, investigate what happened and arrange meetings between docs, nurses and patients to talk about things and answer questions. 
The healthcare system here is so amazingly good. It&#039;s a pleasure to work in. Yes, there are some problems, but not like in Ireland. The hours are much better too-the longest shift I do here is only 15 hours long. I have done 50+ hours straight in Ireland with no sleep and no scheduled meal breaks, as part of an overall 100+ hour week. Mistakes happen in that kind of ridiculous environment. How could they not? Rather than malign the frontliners at every turn, why not look closer at why these things happen and try to fix them? The Irish healthcare service is riddled with error prone systems at every turn, and instead everyone says &quot;no, that&#039;s not it. It&#039;s the staff. They&#039;re all cunts&quot; Well that solves nothing. Although it does give other countries with better sense some well trained Irish docs, which is at least beneficial for them!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Why start at the top? Why not sack the doctors/nurses directly responsible for wrong-doing, misdiagnosis? That poor child now without a healthy kidney…why look for Mary Harney’s head on a platter? Sack the people directly responsible &#8211; we wouldn’t be long cleaning up the health-service then. But no, much better to bang our chests and call for action that ain’t gonna happen, but it’s a safe option largely because of the points made by Nonny above.&#8221;</p>
<p>Ex-Pat-that kind of &#8220;Fuck all the fucking evil rich doctors and bitch nurses, they&#8217;re shite and we should punich them for even existing&#8221; attitude is EXACTLY the reason why I, and several colleagues, trained at the Irish taxpayers expense, worked in Ireland for a couple of miserable, awful years and then wised up and left for Oz and NZ, not to return. The kind of adversarial, litigious punitive health system that we have in Ireland currently is partially responsible for why it is so shit. People are so incredibly afraid of making mistakes and so wary of saying anything that could possibly be construed as an admission that something went wrong that the patients and relatives never know the full story, and can never find out any information or reasons why something has happened. As a doctor, when my own father was in hospital, it was even worse. The staff knew that I would question things, one day, in the same hospital where I worked, my father was asking me to tell him what was happening, and I didn&#8217;t know, so I started looking at his Xrays. A nurse popped around, whipped it out of my hand, and started yelling at me that it was confidential and I had no business looking at it. I had to fight tooth and nail just to get any info at all. This is not the way it should be in healthcare.<br />
I work in NZ currently, and here a doctor or nurse cannot be sued or taken to court. There is a government funded body called the ACC (Accident Compensation Corporation) that compensates all victims of medical mishaps after a careful inquiry. This is beneficial for a number of reasons:<br />
1)The victim ALWAYS gets compensation and assistance and does not have to go through the stressful and expensive process of getting a lawyer, fighting to obtain medical records, going to court etc, after going through a traumatic event.<br />
2)Defensive medicine is not practiced-again, more beneficial to patients and less strain on finite resources.<br />
3)Less stress for doctors and nurses who can carry out their job without fear. It&#8217;s already stressful enough, you know. Death, sickness, anger, long hours all that, yeah?<br />
4)Better relations between patients and medical staff. You don&#8217;t guard your every word for fear you will be sued and dragged though the courts and papers. They in turn, know you will be honest and open with them.<br />
5) The above has a knock-on effect of creating a system of open disclosure and honesty. Where I work there is a Customer Service Dept and Patient Advocacy dept. Their sole job is to handle complaints, pull all relevant records, investigate what happened and arrange meetings between docs, nurses and patients to talk about things and answer questions.<br />
The healthcare system here is so amazingly good. It&#8217;s a pleasure to work in. Yes, there are some problems, but not like in Ireland. The hours are much better too-the longest shift I do here is only 15 hours long. I have done 50+ hours straight in Ireland with no sleep and no scheduled meal breaks, as part of an overall 100+ hour week. Mistakes happen in that kind of ridiculous environment. How could they not? Rather than malign the frontliners at every turn, why not look closer at why these things happen and try to fix them? The Irish healthcare service is riddled with error prone systems at every turn, and instead everyone says &#8220;no, that&#8217;s not it. It&#8217;s the staff. They&#8217;re all cunts&#8221; Well that solves nothing. Although it does give other countries with better sense some well trained Irish docs, which is at least beneficial for them!</p>
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		<title>By: Pinkie</title>
		<link>http://twentymajor.net/2008/05/08/what-do-you-have-to-do-to-get-sacked/#comment-32867</link>
		<dc:creator>Pinkie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 23:37:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twentymajor.net/?p=1427#comment-32867</guid>
		<description>People who can&#039;t manage a poo are the ones that are left  in management whilst those who are capable are swept under the carpet.  Happens in the smallest of businesses.  Sad but true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People who can&#8217;t manage a poo are the ones that are left  in management whilst those who are capable are swept under the carpet.  Happens in the smallest of businesses.  Sad but true.</p>
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		<title>By: Jo</title>
		<link>http://twentymajor.net/2008/05/08/what-do-you-have-to-do-to-get-sacked/#comment-32866</link>
		<dc:creator>Jo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 23:00:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twentymajor.net/?p=1427#comment-32866</guid>
		<description>morgor the endearing, if you read this, it&#039;s recalcitrant,I think</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>morgor the endearing, if you read this, it&#8217;s recalcitrant,I think</p>
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		<title>By: Lucy</title>
		<link>http://twentymajor.net/2008/05/08/what-do-you-have-to-do-to-get-sacked/#comment-32860</link>
		<dc:creator>Lucy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 20:41:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twentymajor.net/?p=1427#comment-32860</guid>
		<description>Great song MB and fits the dweeb perfectly!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great song MB and fits the dweeb perfectly!</p>
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		<title>By: Eoin</title>
		<link>http://twentymajor.net/2008/05/08/what-do-you-have-to-do-to-get-sacked/#comment-32856</link>
		<dc:creator>Eoin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 19:06:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twentymajor.net/?p=1427#comment-32856</guid>
		<description>&quot;He shafted Mary Hanafin, thankfully, and perhaps things will improve in the Department of Education.&quot;
Explain, please!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;He shafted Mary Hanafin, thankfully, and perhaps things will improve in the Department of Education.&#8221;<br />
Explain, please!</p>
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		<title>By: Monkey Balls</title>
		<link>http://twentymajor.net/2008/05/08/what-do-you-have-to-do-to-get-sacked/#comment-32850</link>
		<dc:creator>Monkey Balls</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 18:31:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twentymajor.net/?p=1427#comment-32850</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t believe nobody posted a link to this yet; http://tinyurl.com/5bqtwy

Don&#039;t mind the video. Listen to the song.

You&#039;re welcome.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t believe nobody posted a link to this yet; <a href="http://tinyurl.com/5bqtwy" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/5bqtwy</a></p>
<p>Don&#8217;t mind the video. Listen to the song.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re welcome.</p>
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		<title>By: Dessiegee</title>
		<link>http://twentymajor.net/2008/05/08/what-do-you-have-to-do-to-get-sacked/#comment-32835</link>
		<dc:creator>Dessiegee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 May 2008 15:47:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://twentymajor.net/?p=1427#comment-32835</guid>
		<description>Shit, Hugs all round then....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shit, Hugs all round then&#8230;.</p>
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